Minister of State for Education and Supervising Minister for Education, Chief Nyesom Wike, says the Federal Government has done everything possible to please ASUU. In the wake of the Federal Government’s ultimatum to ASUU, Wike, a lawyer, spoke with Tobi Soniyi and Sunny Aghaeze last Friday at his office in Abuja…
Nigerians are concerned about the strike embarked upon by the Academic Staff Union of Universities. We are also aware that a series of negotiations had taken place. At what stage are we now in resolving this dispute?
You must have heard that yesterday we directed the Vice Chancellors of federal universities to reopen for normal academic and allied activities and to comply with the directive of the Pro Chancellors who are like chairmen of the governing councils, and in doing that they should make sure that they create an enabling environment that will give support to normal academic activities. And that they have from now till December 4 to make sure that all universities are opened for academic activities.
And also to make sure that those who come for lectures we will do everything to support them and those who refuse to come can be deemed to have abandoned their job and that action should be taken against them. That is where we are now.
What happens if they refuse to honour that invitation?
Assuming you don't go to work, what happens to someone who does not go to work?
They have not been going to work all this while and nothing has happened?
Nothing happened because we were discussing with them and we believed that we should give them some time. We have discussed with them, we have come to an agreement. In fact, these discussions started at the level of Ministry of Education down to the Secretary to the Federal Government with other Ministers, including Minister of Finance and Coordinating Minister of the Economy and also Minister of Labour, meeting with them several times. In fact some state governors had to intervene. Yet they were still saying no, yet we have agreed on almost 80 per cent of the so-called agreement.
There are two contending issues: earned allowances and revatilisation of infrastructure in the universities.
We took them further to the level of the Vice President. The Vice President met with them two or three times. Then we took them to the President, the highest level. On the 4th of November, the President met with them. The Vice President was there. Everybody, ASUU, even the late Professor Iyayi was there. For 13 good hours. Mr. President insisted that we must resolve all the issues that day. And the issues were all resolved. And we then said go back to work. But they said that Mr. President it is a normal convention of ASUS that even though we have agreed, we must still go back to our principal and then within one week we will get back to you. Unfortunately within that one week, Professor Iyayi died. But over three weeks after the meeting with the President we just got a letter from ASUU where they are now telling us that yes, we have discussed but that they would go back to work only if we put down N200 billion which should be put in an account they can see and that this should be done within two weeks and two, that we should also include there that in 2014, we should renegotiate and thirdly the Attorney-General of the Federation should be the one to sign on behalf of government. Were these issues the ones that were discussed with the President? If a president of country had sat with you and had given you his commitment – in fact, as I’m talking to you a special account has been opened and we have agreed that a committee of implementation be set up and ASUU will be there. That the chairman will be the Minister of Education and the non-Academic Staff will be there, Committee of Vice Chancellors will be involved, Pro Chancellors will be in that committee, to make for a successful implementation of these funds and ensure that they are utilised for the purpose for which they were earmarked.
For Christ’s sake, students have been home for five good months and now you are giving fresh conditions, it is unacceptable to anybody! Because we always have this belief that nothing will happen, that we will not going back to the classroom. But let me tell you, so many people want to go back to the classrooms. Yes, there would be some setback but that is a sacrifice we must make now. We cannot continue to hold the entire country to ransom. It is not allowed. ASUU does not love this country more than any other person. We pleaded with ASUU, give us eight years and we will commit this amount of money within these eight years. In that meeting ASUU said no, they wanted six months. To tell you we agreed on something, each of the years, N200 Billion and N220 billion progressively like that which will come to over a trillion naira within the agreed years. If we are able to commit that much money in six years, we would have been able to give the infrastructures a facelift. So what is the problem?
There is the fear that if we sack all of them, we would not have the capacity to replace them, I mean recruiting a whole generation of new lecturers will prove impossible.
It is also the same problem. If, if, if! Now the universities have been closed for five months. This is not the first country it would happen. It had happened in Ghana. Let us know the number of those who want to teach. Let us know the vacancies that exist. The point we are making is this, you can't and should not be allowed to hold a society to ransom. Threat, threat!
Have you asked yourself what is earned allowances? Earned allowances to ASUU is: as supervisors, I mean when you supervise a student's project, government should pay you. If you are supervising a student's project, government will pay you. So what are they paying you for as a lecturers? I have not seen a situation like that! It is like you asking your office to pay you for coming to interview me! What are we paying you for if not to teach students and supervise their projects?
Nigerians don't understand all these things. What is this earned allowance they are talking about? That you supervise a Ph.D student and government should pay you. Meanwhile, the university pays you. What is the work you are doing? Is marking scripts not part of lecturing? So what is the problem?
Part of the problem is also that some of these issues are not explained to the society.
It is not that the society does not get to know the correct position, let us face reality, part of the problem we have is the media. I did not know that ASUU is a newly registered political party. Because from what they are doing now, they have shown that they are a political party, an opposition party. Nowhere in this world can you say that in negotiation, you must get hundred percent of what you negotiated for. Mention where it happens! Even the NLC and TUC, during the fuel subsidies removal problem, did not get a hundred per cent agreement. For several days, they came back and it was explained to them that this action is crippling the economy and we should not allow this to happen, you lose this we also lose this. ASUU cannot say that, in as much as education is important, we don't have other sectors that are of equal importance. Take for instance, the health sector; this sector is also begging for attention. In as much as we sympathise with them, but we have started doing something. Mind you, this decay was not because Jonathan came in, this decay has always been there.
There is the fear that if we sack all of them, we would not have the capacity to replace them, I mean recruiting a whole generation of new lecturers will prove impossible.
It is also the same problem. If, if, if! Now the universities have been closed for five months. This is not the first country it would happen. It had happened in Ghana. Let us know the number of those who want to teach. Let us know the vacancies that exist. The point we are making is this, you can't and should not be allowed to hold a society to ransom. Threat, threat!
Have you asked yourself what is earned allowances? Earned allowances to ASUU is: as supervisors, I mean when you supervise a student's project, government should pay you. If you are supervising a student's project, government will pay you. So what are they paying you for as a lecturers? I have not seen a situation like that! It is like you asking your office to pay you for coming to interview me! What are we paying you for if not to teach students and supervise their projects?
Nigerians don't understand all these things. What is this earned allowance they are talking about? That you supervise a Ph.D student and government should pay you. Meanwhile, the university pays you. What is the work you are doing? Is marking scripts not part of lecturing? So what is the problem?
Part of the problem is also that some of these issues are not explained to the society.
It is not that the society does not get to know the correct position, let us face reality, part of the problem we have is the media. I did not know that ASUU is a newly registered political party. Because from what they are doing now, they have shown that they are a political party, an opposition party. Nowhere in this world can you say that in negotiation, you must get hundred percent of what you negotiated for. Mention where it happens! Even the NLC and TUC, during the fuel subsidies removal problem, did not get a hundred per cent agreement. For several days, they came back and it was explained to them that this action is crippling the economy and we should not allow this to happen, you lose this we also lose this. ASUU cannot say that, in as much as education is important, we don't have other sectors that are of equal importance. Take for instance, the health sector; this sector is also begging for attention. In as much as we sympathise with them, but we have started doing something. Mind you, this decay was not because Jonathan came in, this decay has always been there.
It is the President that said look, this is unacceptable, he said we should set up a committee to go to the universities and let us know the level of rot. The committee went and came back and said the situation in the universities is embarrassing.
Because governors are not members of the Federal Executive Council, the president said the report detailing the rot in the universities should be presented at the National Economic Council where governors are members so that they could also see the decay not only in the Federal universities but also in the state universities which is even the worst so that they would know that universities should not be established politically.
It was not ASUU's idea. It was government's idea, an idea by the president himself.
Just like we have set up committees to go to polytechnics and colleges of education to determine the state of these institutions, to look at the level of decay and see what we can do. Tomorrow now ASUU will come, Oh if you don't do this we would not go to work. Meanwhile, it is the brain child of the government that we must do something and that before we do that we must know the level of decay. That is where we are.
Let me take you away from ASUU. There is a report by a panel set up by government to investigate the cause of the violence that followed the 2011 general elections. The committee suggested that the almajiri informal system of learning be incorporated into the formal education sector. Do you buy the idea?
Because governors are not members of the Federal Executive Council, the president said the report detailing the rot in the universities should be presented at the National Economic Council where governors are members so that they could also see the decay not only in the Federal universities but also in the state universities which is even the worst so that they would know that universities should not be established politically.
It was not ASUU's idea. It was government's idea, an idea by the president himself.
Just like we have set up committees to go to polytechnics and colleges of education to determine the state of these institutions, to look at the level of decay and see what we can do. Tomorrow now ASUU will come, Oh if you don't do this we would not go to work. Meanwhile, it is the brain child of the government that we must do something and that before we do that we must know the level of decay. That is where we are.
Let me take you away from ASUU. There is a report by a panel set up by government to investigate the cause of the violence that followed the 2011 general elections. The committee suggested that the almajiri informal system of learning be incorporated into the formal education sector. Do you buy the idea?
That is in line with us establishing the almajiri schools. It is not moving them away from the roads and allowing them to have some form of Western education alone but to let them have vocational training. It is not just to have basic education. What happens if you have basic education and you do not want to further? But if you have some forms of skills that should be something for you to feed on if you don't want to further your education. Government has agreed, and that is why we have established almajiri schools. As I’m talking to you, the Vice President has laid the symbolic commissioning of over 120 of such schools that will be handed over to states in the north. That it is not the responsibility of the Federal Government for basic education. We are merely supporting the state. Basic education is the responsibility of states and local government.
What about the role of the parents in making sure that their children get this basic education? What can the Federal Government do in this regard?
You must understand the way Nigerian is structured. It is a federal system where states are autonomous. In basic education, the federal government has nothing to do except to push. My experience in this regard is that poverty is a problem. The parents have these children and give to a Mallam who now takes children, allows them to go out every day to beg and come back. And then indoctrinates them through their own religious way. Government said no, this must not be allowed to continue. One of the ways we can stop this is to put these children in school and give them free feeding. Don't allow them to go back to the alamajiri system. One of the things, they want to eat. So if you put them in school and you feed them that will act as a check. If you buy them free books, free uniforms, which is what the government is doing now - we are buying them free books and uniform while the states will feed them free - and keep them in school. That opportunity of roaming the streets and begging for arms would no longer be there.
What about the role of the parents in making sure that their children get this basic education? What can the Federal Government do in this regard?
You must understand the way Nigerian is structured. It is a federal system where states are autonomous. In basic education, the federal government has nothing to do except to push. My experience in this regard is that poverty is a problem. The parents have these children and give to a Mallam who now takes children, allows them to go out every day to beg and come back. And then indoctrinates them through their own religious way. Government said no, this must not be allowed to continue. One of the ways we can stop this is to put these children in school and give them free feeding. Don't allow them to go back to the alamajiri system. One of the things, they want to eat. So if you put them in school and you feed them that will act as a check. If you buy them free books, free uniforms, which is what the government is doing now - we are buying them free books and uniform while the states will feed them free - and keep them in school. That opportunity of roaming the streets and begging for arms would no longer be there.
But how far can we go with this without the support of the states? The way Nigeria is structured, it is a federal system. The Constitution has given out powers and functions to all tiers of government. And you know that education is under the concurrent list. Basic education is exclusively for states. What the federal government can do is to compliment states' effort.
Indiscriminate establishment of private schools and polytechnics is another worrisome development. Some operate without accreditation. Some are in ramshackle buildings. What is government doing about this?
I don't think so, that is not possible! We encourage private institutions, but we have conditions which you must satisfy before we allow you to run one. If we don't have private universities today, with the number of Nigerians who want to have access to tertiary education there would have been a problem. Take for example, assuming we don't have private universities now and look at the strike, what would have happened? It is to create access. We have licensed not less than 40 private universities in order to allow more people to go to school. Every year, we have not less than 1.5 million Nigerians who want to go to tertiary institutions. But the carrying capacity of public institutions is not more than 600,000. So, we have about 900,000 left. What do you do?
But what about the standard? How do we ensure standards?
That is what I’m saying. Go to most of the private universities. Go and see it. Have you been to Afe Babalola University? Have you been to Covenant University? We are closing down illegal universities. You see what ICPC and NUC are doing. We are not saying that you will not find them there. That is why it takes a lot of resources for monitoring and checkmating these illegal universities. You and I know that there is no way government can just give you license to operate a university or a polytechnic; in fact establishing a polytechnic is even more serious because it deals with teaching of vocational skills and requires a lot of resources. It takes time. But we encourage well meaning private individuals who want to establish polytechnics but they must fulfil the conditions. To establish a polytechnic is not an ordinary thing, you have to get the equipment because it is like a technical college, I mean a higher technical institution. It is not a place where they tech theory. So it is not an ordinary thing. Most of those ones you see are not recognised. Those recognised must have met the standards.
Indiscriminate establishment of private schools and polytechnics is another worrisome development. Some operate without accreditation. Some are in ramshackle buildings. What is government doing about this?
I don't think so, that is not possible! We encourage private institutions, but we have conditions which you must satisfy before we allow you to run one. If we don't have private universities today, with the number of Nigerians who want to have access to tertiary education there would have been a problem. Take for example, assuming we don't have private universities now and look at the strike, what would have happened? It is to create access. We have licensed not less than 40 private universities in order to allow more people to go to school. Every year, we have not less than 1.5 million Nigerians who want to go to tertiary institutions. But the carrying capacity of public institutions is not more than 600,000. So, we have about 900,000 left. What do you do?
But what about the standard? How do we ensure standards?
That is what I’m saying. Go to most of the private universities. Go and see it. Have you been to Afe Babalola University? Have you been to Covenant University? We are closing down illegal universities. You see what ICPC and NUC are doing. We are not saying that you will not find them there. That is why it takes a lot of resources for monitoring and checkmating these illegal universities. You and I know that there is no way government can just give you license to operate a university or a polytechnic; in fact establishing a polytechnic is even more serious because it deals with teaching of vocational skills and requires a lot of resources. It takes time. But we encourage well meaning private individuals who want to establish polytechnics but they must fulfil the conditions. To establish a polytechnic is not an ordinary thing, you have to get the equipment because it is like a technical college, I mean a higher technical institution. It is not a place where they tech theory. So it is not an ordinary thing. Most of those ones you see are not recognised. Those recognised must have met the standards.
Yes, many of them are not recognised but how do we make sure that they don't exploit innocent students looking for admission?
There is a list of approved schools. Just like when our students leave here to go school overseas and go to attend schools that are not recognised. When they come back here to apply for NYSC, we say no, this certificate is not recognised. We tell them they cannot go for NYSC. Before such students go for service, they must send the names of their schools to us for approval. Even if you read for up to Ph.D you must come back home and do your NYSC. If you attend schools that are not approved by government, we will say no. That is why some people are having problems. If you want to go to school overseas, you must ask which are the schools approved by the Federal Government. Some go there just because they are looking for admission and then go and apply to a school not approved by government. Some even go there because they do not meet the basic requirements to get admission here. After finishing there, we tell them that they don't have the basic requirements to enter university and therefore we will not mobilise them for NYSC. In a day, we get hundred of applications.
Let us digress, may I ask what is your relationship with the Executive Governor of Rivers State?
My relationship with him is that he is the governor of Rivers State. But he is not my party member. That is all. We don't have the same political view. We are not in the same political party. He is my governor for today.
Back to education, there is discrimination in the graduates of universities and polytechnic. What is the Minister doing to abolish this unwholesome practice?
That issue is being resolved at the Head of Service level. A committee has also been set up to look into the issue. The committee is headed by the permanent secretary. But I don't want to let the cat out of the bag; we are working on it.
Again, in the strict sense, if we apply the rules strictly polytechnics should not be allowed to run courses like mass communications, secretarial studies, business administration, accountancy because these are conventional courses that should be taught at universities. Polytechnics should develop manpower, technicians and engineers. Why should a polytechnic be teaching business administration? They leave the core areas of their mandate. They are to produce manpower for the economy. Many of those courses run by polytechnics should be taught in universities. They should concentrate on practicals. Polytechnics created those courses in order to make money. But a committee is going to work on how best we should handle this issue.
Is it true that your governorship ambition is aggravating the crisis in Rivers State?
Which means there was a crisis before? When I was Chief of Staff there was crisis? Is it my governorship ambition that makes you to say that you would leave for another party? Is it my governorship ambition that the federal government stole 500 billion US Dollars? Is it my governorship ambition that makes you to quarrel with your colleague governors when there is no more governorship forum? People should face reality. Is it what is happening in Rivers state that is affecting the Nigerian Governors Forum? Is it what is happening in Rivers state that they are saying that Jonathan should not run for 2015? What does my ambition so called have to do with all these?
Besides, don't I have a right to have an ambition? Has it become a sin to have an ambition? Don't you have ambition to go to heaven? It is one thing to have an ambition, you can even have an ambition to say you want to be president of Nigeria, it is not a sin. But does it mean you will be president of Nigeria? The mere fact that you want to go to heaven does not mean that you will make heaven. Why should that be the problem?
There is a list of approved schools. Just like when our students leave here to go school overseas and go to attend schools that are not recognised. When they come back here to apply for NYSC, we say no, this certificate is not recognised. We tell them they cannot go for NYSC. Before such students go for service, they must send the names of their schools to us for approval. Even if you read for up to Ph.D you must come back home and do your NYSC. If you attend schools that are not approved by government, we will say no. That is why some people are having problems. If you want to go to school overseas, you must ask which are the schools approved by the Federal Government. Some go there just because they are looking for admission and then go and apply to a school not approved by government. Some even go there because they do not meet the basic requirements to get admission here. After finishing there, we tell them that they don't have the basic requirements to enter university and therefore we will not mobilise them for NYSC. In a day, we get hundred of applications.
Let us digress, may I ask what is your relationship with the Executive Governor of Rivers State?
My relationship with him is that he is the governor of Rivers State. But he is not my party member. That is all. We don't have the same political view. We are not in the same political party. He is my governor for today.
Back to education, there is discrimination in the graduates of universities and polytechnic. What is the Minister doing to abolish this unwholesome practice?
That issue is being resolved at the Head of Service level. A committee has also been set up to look into the issue. The committee is headed by the permanent secretary. But I don't want to let the cat out of the bag; we are working on it.
Again, in the strict sense, if we apply the rules strictly polytechnics should not be allowed to run courses like mass communications, secretarial studies, business administration, accountancy because these are conventional courses that should be taught at universities. Polytechnics should develop manpower, technicians and engineers. Why should a polytechnic be teaching business administration? They leave the core areas of their mandate. They are to produce manpower for the economy. Many of those courses run by polytechnics should be taught in universities. They should concentrate on practicals. Polytechnics created those courses in order to make money. But a committee is going to work on how best we should handle this issue.
Is it true that your governorship ambition is aggravating the crisis in Rivers State?
Which means there was a crisis before? When I was Chief of Staff there was crisis? Is it my governorship ambition that makes you to say that you would leave for another party? Is it my governorship ambition that the federal government stole 500 billion US Dollars? Is it my governorship ambition that makes you to quarrel with your colleague governors when there is no more governorship forum? People should face reality. Is it what is happening in Rivers state that is affecting the Nigerian Governors Forum? Is it what is happening in Rivers state that they are saying that Jonathan should not run for 2015? What does my ambition so called have to do with all these?
Besides, don't I have a right to have an ambition? Has it become a sin to have an ambition? Don't you have ambition to go to heaven? It is one thing to have an ambition, you can even have an ambition to say you want to be president of Nigeria, it is not a sin. But does it mean you will be president of Nigeria? The mere fact that you want to go to heaven does not mean that you will make heaven. Why should that be the problem?
The truth of the matter is that none of you know Amaechi. I know him very well. We have not come to talk politics. When it is time to talk politics we will tell the world who is who. With all due respect, it is not by being member of opposition and you using the media to say all sorts of things. At the appropriate time we will talk with facts and figures. We will tell Nigerians about those who are shouting corruption, corruption. If you want to lead a revolution, your people must be on ground. Your family should not be away. You don't lead revolution by carrying police. If you want to confront authorities do you use security? You will lead the people. But when you have 200 Mopol with you, you can't say you are leading a revolution. Go alone and let us see the people you are leading. That is what they call revolution.
No comments:
Post a Comment